Form 8879/Adobe Signatures

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#1
DEN56  
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I send clients a secure pdf of Form 8879. I have received Form 8879 back from several clients and I am pretty sure the 8879 was signed in some version of Adobe. I remain unclear; is an Adobe "Fill & Sign" signature acceptable for Form 8879?
 

#2
sjrcpa  
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No. IRS requires manual signature or an electronic signature that uses KBA (Knowledge Based Authentication, I think).
 

#3
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No. I have started using DocuSign with KBA for this purpose. Your tax software might offer it for a comparable fee, but I like how I can do it through SmartVault and the signed doc will be returned to same folder originally uploaded. Makes it easy to retrieve, and resides in SmartVault until I delete it. Very easy to set up KBA; I might use UT's esigs at some point, but right now prefer DocuSign w/ KBA. I might also just prefer to pay DocuSign vs. TR.
 

#4
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CornerstoneCPA wrote:No. I have started using DocuSign with KBA for this purpose. Your tax software might offer it for a comparable fee, but I like how I can do it through SmartVault and the signed doc will be returned to same folder originally uploaded. Makes it easy to retrieve, and resides in SmartVault until I delete it. Very easy to set up KBA; I might use UT's esigs at some point, but right now prefer DocuSign w/ KBA. I might also just prefer to pay DocuSign vs. TR.


How much do you pay for DocuSign with KBA e-signature if you don't mind me asking?
 

#5
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ManVsTax wrote:
How much do you pay for DocuSign with KBA e-signature if you don't mind me asking?


Depends on if I buy in bulk or individually. Individual costs are $2 for a DocuSign envelope, and then $3 per KBA. Since I am just starting to use it, I have been buying individuals to see how well it works, and it works quite well.

Or, I can buy 50 e-sig envelopes for $80 and 50 KBAs for $120. 500 e-sig envelopes is $650, and 500 KBAs is $975.

I am debating how I can put all tax forms I require clients to complete into a single document and then utilize DocuSign for it via a created template. This would include engagement letters, due diligence forms, etc. Since I do not need KBAs for this information, I can obtain joint signatures for only $2 since it would be a single envelope per client. I am also thinking of doing away with client organizers and just putting the critical information I care about on a form I would include in the DocuSign package. If it is all in a single package, a client cannot return only part of what I request, which is one key driver for this idea.
 

#6
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Thank you. RightSignature KBA with ShareFile integration totals $258/month minimum.

DocuSign seems much more compelling for a small-medium sized practice without large economies of scale.
 

#7
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CornerstoneCPA wrote:I am also thinking of doing away with client organizers and just putting the critical information I care about on a form I would include in the DocuSign package. If it is all in a single package, a client cannot return only part of what I request, which is one key driver for this idea.


I like your idea in another thread about trying to find a way to allow clients to complete organizers online. Right now organizers are optional for my clients but highly recommended. I'm toying with the idea of making them mandatory in the future...and I think making it an online questionnaire that can be saved, put down, and picked back up along the way might make it more bearable.

Problem is I can't think of a way to migrate 8 pages of questions into a "survey" format in a time efficient manner. Too many other Nov / Dec projects and upgrades are already waiting for me...
 

#8
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ManVsTax wrote:Thank you. RightSignature KBA with ShareFile integration totals $258/month minimum.



I had RightSignature, at one point, alongside ShareFile. I was paying $150/mo for the two, not sure if it included KBA (probably not). I was not interested in pursuing it at that time, so cancelled RightSignature. Ultimately, cancelled ShareFile too...too few features for the cost. I think I can achieve everything I need with ShareFile and DocuSign templates, and love that I can create DocuSign envelopes from ShareFile, and then the completed envelopes are returned right back to ShareFile. Very easy and convenient.

ManVsTax wrote:I like your idea in another thread about trying to find a way to allow clients to complete organizers online. Right now organizers are optional for my clients but highly recommended.

...

Problem is I can't think of a way to migrate 8 pages of questions into a "survey" format in a time efficient manner. Too many other Nov / Dec projects and upgrades are already waiting for me...


It'll probably be a weekend project for me. I am thinking I will even get away from having pre-populated client contact information on engagement letter and organizer, and force clients to fill it in so I know it is current and accurate information. Since few clients actually use the organizers, and I only care about the checklist pages, I am going to create an Excel Worksheet that mirrors the checklist questions (and adds a few of my own) that I will then convert to a PDF. Ultimately, I am expecting a 20-25 page "tax package" each individual will need to complete, and maybe 15 pages for business entities. Since they will be identical, I should be able to easily set up a template in DocuSign for distribution. Though, since I do not believe conditional logic exists in DocuSign, I would need separate templates for single/MFS vs. MFJ clients.

Since clients do not like to follow the "standard" way of doing things, I will create a method that forces them to do it, while being far more efficient.
 

#9
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CornerstoneCPA wrote:I think I can achieve everything I need with ShareFile and DocuSign templates, and love that I can create DocuSign envelopes from ShareFile, and then the completed envelopes are returned right back to ShareFile. Very easy and convenient.


Do you mean SmartVault here? I wasn't aware DocuSign integrated with ShareFile.
 

#10
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ManVsTax wrote:
CornerstoneCPA wrote:I think I can achieve everything I need with ShareFile and DocuSign templates, and love that I can create DocuSign envelopes from ShareFile, and then the completed envelopes are returned right back to ShareFile. Very easy and convenient.


Do you mean SmartVault here? I wasn't aware DocuSign integrated with ShareFile.


Oops, yes, SmartVault. DocuSign does not integrate with ShareFile--Citrix forces you to use their RightSignature service. I've been saying ShareFile for a couple years now, still getting used to saying SmartVault, ha!
 

#11
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Also, just took a look at DocuSign PowerForms. You can create documents and distribute a link via your website, email, etc. So, in theory, I could distribute generic packages by taxpayer type (and single/MFS vs. MFJ) just through these links. They would connect to DocuSign and be returned to me by DocuSign, though they would not go back to SmartVault. I'd have to upload files to each client and then set templates for the forms in DocuSign for them to be sent back to SmartVault upon completion. Kind of thinking out loud with options and ideas, since there has to be a better way of doing all of this.
 

#12
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Thanks Cornerstone. I plan to investigate DocuSign further in November as one of my major upgrades. I need KBA for efile authorizations and like the idea of it for engagement letters too.

I'm not going to migrate away from ShareFile for a while as I just transitioned all of my clients over this summer, and don't have room in the budget for RightSignature at this point in time.
 

#13
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Since I am waiting on information from clients, I spent some time piecing together the TY 2019 individual engagement agreement with tax forms and questionnaires, though I do not yet have the standard tax organizer check mark questions completed. 21 pages, so it'll be 25 in total. Debating if I should force them to initial each page so it seems they have actually read it, or just allow them to click "next" while bypassing several pages at a time. I do NOT plan to be using KBA for this, since it is not required for standard engagements and organizers.

Really hoping this approach will solve my frustrations with organizers and other tax related things I request, independent of actual tax documents.
 

#14
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CornerstoneCPA wrote:I do NOT plan to be using KBA for this, since it is not required for standard engagements and organizers.

I totally agree with that. Not only would it be annoying to clients to have to go through KBA for these non-IRS documents, but expensive as well. And I for one do not always require both spouses to sign the engagement letter in a joint filing situation. UT offers non-KBA signing for engagement letters and consent (Sec 7216) forms for $1 per bundle.
 

#15
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makbo wrote:UT offers non-KBA signing for engagement letters and consent (Sec 7216) forms for $1 per bundle.


I'd rather spend $2 per envelope through DocuSign than pay UT more money, they have been pissing me off by not responding to simple requests and just trying to upsell me on crap I do not currently need or want. I also want to get away from organizers; they're useless because most of my clients do not complete them, and I just want the checkbox questions to be answered, anyway. My intention is simple: force clients to complete what I DO want, at same time they complete the engagement letter. They cannot just filter one form to me without sending the others.
 

#16
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CornerstoneCPA wrote:My intention is simple: force clients to complete what I DO want, at same time they complete the engagement letter. They cannot just filter one form to me without sending the others.

I enforce this with a sequence of required steps. I do not proceed to the next step until the current step is complete, so if the client does not follow my procedure, my progress comes to a halt.

Admittedly, there are always exceptions, primarily the few clients I see in person (older ones who are local to me).

Step 1: by late January (or whenever they get to it), e-sign my engagement letter, and annual consent to disclose, if appropriate. No KBA required for e-sign. Backup if they balk is a PDF version of the letters.

Step 2: if step 1 complete, send online Yes/No questionnaire, and optional online Organizer pages. If they respond online, download results to my software. If they balk, I will send a PDF of the Yes/No questionnaire and wait for that to be returned, I do not require signature on the Yes/No questionnaire. They have the option of uploading PDFs of tax documents at this point as well, or separately to my secure file portal. Note: most of my clients do not fill out the organizer, which is the way I like it.

Step 3: if step 2 is complete, begin working on return. (Normally I bill the client when return is ready to sign, before it is filed).

Interestingly, in terms of taxpayer ID due diligence, it isn't until they (each if MFJ) e-sign the ready-to-efile return that I have really pinned them down as to who they are, since I am not inspecting physical ID of any kind for most of my clients.
 

#17
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I find I already have to go back with so many questions once they have provided documents, I do not also then want to be chasing down the requisite agreements/forms.

And yes on billing client before filing, though a few exceptions exist. My engagement, and e-mailed invoices, state that the returns will not be filed without payment, though like I said, I have some clients where this is not enforced.
 

#18
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ManVsTax wrote:Thanks Cornerstone. I plan to investigate DocuSign further in November as one of my major upgrades. I need KBA for efile authorizations and like the idea of it for engagement letters too.


I have not finished the template, but did enough to figure out how it handles recognizing documents I send to DocuSign from SmartVault if a template exists. It immediately recognized the document, and then all I had to do was edit recipients. Since I created the template for MFJ, all I need to do is remove the spouse recipient and DocuSign automatically removes the spouse's template fields. I think it will be a huge time saver even if I do have to do a bit of manual work in sending the DocuSigns, or I can do it in bulk directly through DocuSign, but then they're just loaded back to DocuSign, only, and not also SmartVault.

For eFile forms, I would just create templates with recipient KBAs, and edit the recipient name and address and off it goes.
 

#19
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While we're still somewhat on this subject, I know the IRS accepts a printed name as an ERO's signature on Form 8879. But, the date field is left blank by software. I have still been printing off electronically signed/facsimile/e-mailed 8879s, dating, and then scanning into my records, again. I want to eliminate paper, 100%; what are people doing for the ERO signature date? I cannot add it afterward, electronically, since DocuSign prohibits editing. Unless I add myself as a required signer to each envelope I prepare that contains eFile signature forms, and set a signing order...
 

#20
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CornerstoneCPA wrote:While we're still somewhat on this subject, I know the IRS accepts a printed name as an ERO's signature on Form 8879. But, the date field is left blank by software.

Not by my software (UltraTax). I enter a signature date, and optionally a spouse signature date, if different, and an ERO signature date, if different. But they never are different. The 8879 that goes to the client already has the signature date printed (the date I send it to them, or the next day if I send it late in the afternoon). Since most of my clients esign the 8879 using KBA, I have an audit record of when and where they actually signed it. For the few who print out the 8879 and wet ink sign, I keep on file whatever version they give me.
 

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