Practiced for 55 years - Not one engagement letter

I was talking to a friend of a step parent who was a practicing CPA from about 30 years old to about 85 years old (and still sharp as a tack to this day).

We were talking about PITA clients and I mentioned my engagement letter.

In all the years of his practice, he never used one.

He went on a handshake.

If there was an issue, he would tell them in his Bronx accent (in a nice tone) , "don't give me that BS, you know it takes a CPA a few weeks to complete a tax return (for example) - this is your fault and you know it - you can sue me or go (you know what) yourself". And he'd laugh. This is his personalty, and it is quite magnetic, actually. He never loses his cool and he tells you things very directly and colorfully.

Clients LOVED him and he was never sued.

How loose of a cannon was he? Was he extremely lucky that he never had any real problems?

My mentor was like that too. Back in those days a handshake and your word was good enough! Those days are gone my friend. Now the #1 worry is CYA!

I was talking to a friend of a step parent who was a practicing CPA from about 30 years old to about 85 years old (and still sharp as a tack to this day).

We were talking about PITA clients and I mentioned my engagement letter.

In all the years of his practice, he never used one.

He went on a handshake.

If there was an issue, he would tell them in his Bronx accent (in a nice tone) , "don't give me that BS, you know it takes a CPA a few weeks to complete a tax return (for example) - this is your fault and you know it - you can sue me or go (you know what) yourself". And he'd laugh. This is his personalty, and it is quite magnetic, actually. He never loses his cool and he tells you things very directly and colorfully.

Clients LOVED him and he was never sued.

How loose of a cannon was he? Was he extremely lucky that he never had any real problems?

Being from NYC originally, having worked in all 5 boroughs, I can tell you this does not surprise me.

One of my mentors cursed in meetings, was passionate as an advocate for his clients.

He had an engagement letter BUT his behavior was not something you would see in training films.

I am VERY much like this now as well. The clients who like it, like it a lot.

The clients who dont leave.

In front of a client, I once told an IRS agent in an audit "I dont want to hear your opinion. I want to hear the law. I have the law on my side so if you think you can rattle me, forget it. I have the law and I'll drag this out and tell your bosss you are a terrible auditor."

I hear that story to this day from my client... but he was quite shaken when it happened.

About a decade ago I read a legal opinion on one of the CPA oriented website saying engagement letters provide no legal protection at all. Their entire goal is to scare unsuspecting people into NOT coming after you but any attorney would know the letter is meaningless.

Sat in on a webcast years ago that E/O Insurance is designed to provide you with enough legal protection to make sure the insurance company doesn't have to pay anything. Once their liability is limited, you are essentially on your own.

My Dad, who was an insurance adjuster, said something very similar to Beagle regarding liability insurance. Dad said to never get the lower limits because the insurance company would simply write a check and wash its hands. If you had higher limits, the insurance company would fight for you because it was cheaper for them

About a decade ago I read a legal opinion on one of the CPA oriented website saying engagement letters provide no legal protection at all. Their entire goal is to scare unsuspecting people into NOT coming after you but any attorney would know the letter is meaningless.

I agree with that assessment. In the olden days, parties actually communicated, had a meeting of minds and sealed it with a handshake. Nowadays, practitioners don't know how to communicate and rely on a mumbo-jumbo letter nobody reads that they hope will protect their fat asses when they get sued because the client gets pissed off at the lack of communication.

The old fart from the Bronx had it right. Communication and a handshake precludes the need for the CYA junk.

One of my mentors cursed in meetings, was passionate as an advocate for his clients.

It took me a while to get there but this pretty much describes me in practice now... my client relationships improved immensely once I loosened up and started cussing around them.

One of my mentors cursed in meetings, was passionate as an advocate for his clients.

It took me a while to get there but this pretty much describes me in practice now... my client relationships improved immensely once I loosened up and started cussing around them.

Absolutely.... I am "myself" in front of clients. Drop the F bomb on occasion etc.

In Hawaii, cursing is not so common, and it's not really "me" to talk that way.

What I admire is the way he handles things so casually.

If a client would blame him for a penalty, he wouldn't go whining about what's in the engagement letter (like I would, lol).

"What kind of #$*&h)(#e doesn't know that an accountant is busy around the deadlines? Just pay your $*%&$^n $400 penalty and don't be late next time. What are you so worried about ya cheap SOB? Get the $&^^^ out of here already and say hi to the wife. Let me know if you need anything. If not, I'll see you next year".

Same thing with PITAs. He'd just tell them "I'm not doing that, are you f#&$^%*g kidding me? Stop being such a PITA. We'll handle it "this way" and stop making yourself crazy over it."

He has a really big house and a nice boat. It makes me wonder if I worry too much and take these sorts of client issues too seriously.

Everyone has a different personality and mannerism so it would be foolhardy to copy a different personality that you are not, just to be popular. Tried that when I was young and it backfired!

Everyone has a different personality and mannerism so it would be foolhardy to copy a different personality that you are not, just to be popular.

This, 100%. Most people can sense when someone else is being disingenuous.

I don't curse or swear much in my personal life. I can't recall a time that I've ever swore or cursed in front of a client. I don't mind or care if a client curses in front of me. That's the way I prefer to do it, and it hasn't affected me.

I think it comes down to:

The clients who like it, like it a lot.

The clients who dont leave.

At one of my prior firms, a partner lost a client by emailing one of the owners a play on words that amounted to "f*** you". The client was involved in manufacturing and selling eating utensils, so you can guess which benign four letter "F" word the partner substituted for the offensive four letter "F" word.

This was a big client. Although the staff found it tragically funny once the story came out, the other partners were not happy, to say the least.

At one of my prior firms, a partner lost a client by emailing one of the owners a play on words that amounted to "f*** you".

I don't care how upset you are for any reason, there is no place in a business correspondence to use four letter words like that. An intelligent professional can express the same sentiments with other english words that "gives a piece of your mind".

When I e-mail or send a disengagement letter or something similar, I write it and then save it for a day and then read it again before sending. Believe me a little bit of cooling off period does wonders to your mind!

I'm pretty sure it was done in a playful manner (or at least that's what the partner thought). Either way, the recipient did not interpret it the same way the sender did.

Everyone has a different personality and mannerism so it would be foolhardy to copy a different personality that you are not, just to be popular. Tried that when I was young and it backfired!

The point of the OP is not about the cursing. It's about how stressed out, anxious, and sensitive I am to these client situations and PITA clients in general vs the way this guy is not. It's also about how I am so fixated on my engagement letter vs how he never had one.

I wont be cursing, trying to be someone I'm not, or tossing out my engagement letter, but I will be trying to emulate the stress-free way he allows these issues to roll off his shoulders. I am the opposite to a fault and it will be healthier and more beneficial in several ways for me to worry about it less. It's a great area for me to grow and improve.

I don't care how upset you are for any reason, there is no place in a business correspondence to use four letter words like that. An intelligent professional can express the same sentiments with other english words that "gives a piece of your mind".

When I e-mail or send a disengagement letter or something similar, I write it and then save it for a day and then read it again before sending. Believe me a little bit of cooling off period does wonders to your mind!

This. 1000 times this!

Stay away from you using the F word and other curses with clients, staff & business associates. My Mom used to say " you are a professional and should act in a professional manner always ".
Concerning E mails -never use curse words & other negative comments in an email. My attorney told me once a long time ago " say it in Roses & say it in Mink. One thing you never do is say it in INK.

Everyone has a different personality and mannerism so it would be foolhardy to copy a different personality that you are not, just to be popular. Tried that when I was young and it backfired!

The point of the OP is not about the cursing. It's about how stressed out, anxious, and sensitive I am to these client situations and PITA clients in general vs the way this guy is not. It's also about how I am so fixated on my engagement letter vs how he never had one.

I wont be cursing, trying to be someone I'm not, or tossing out my engagement letter, but I will be trying to emulate the stress-free way he allows these issues to roll off his shoulders. I am the opposite to a fault and it will be healthier and more beneficial in several ways for me to worry about it less. It's a great area for me to grow and improve.

I don't care how upset you are for any reason, there is no place in a business correspondence to use four letter words like that. An intelligent professional can express the same sentiments with other english words that "gives a piece of your mind".

When I e-mail or send a disengagement letter or something similar, I write it and then save it for a day and then read it again before sending. Believe me a little bit of cooling off period does wonders to your mind!

This. 1000 times this!

Perhaps but the CPAs I knew and know who do it, weigh their income, and don’t concern themselves with what the client thinks, Their self confidence , as is mine, is unshakable. But whatever works....

How can you be stressed out in Honolulu ? I practice in the Big Apple-that is stress -LOL

How can you be stressed out in Honolulu ? I practice in the Big Apple-that is stress -LOL

Haha!

It's not so bad - and it's just my personality to be sensitive about client problems and PITA clients.

My engagement letters for taxes are absurd. I am going to have to scale them back for sections that will not apply to MY clients.

I get tired of having to ask for an engagement letter for frickin' prepared financial statements. With some clients, whenever they ask to me to do something, it seems like I respond, "Ok, I'll send you an engagement letter for it."