Senile client and what you would do.

Technical topics regarding tax preparation.
#1
RightOn  
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I have a client for whom I have been providing tax service for about 20 years. She is almost 90 years old now. And I can see her mental ability is deteriorating. I really think she needs help to gather the tax information to provide to me and that she needs someone she can trust to help to review the tax return for her or together with her as I always want my clients to thoroughly review a tax return before they sign it.

The problem is that she is a single woman with no relatives that I know of. I am honestly getting uncomfortable to continue to provide service to her wondering whether she has the ability to review the tax return or not.

But what shall I do under the situation? Should I just tell her I cannot continue to provide service to her? I'd feel very sorry if I have to say that to her. Just imagine you are 90 years old and you have to look for a new tax preparer because the one who has been helping you for the last 20 years suddenly says to you that he cannot provide service to you anymore.

So, what would you do?
 

#2
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Gather whatever evidence you can and prepare the return.
Steve
 

#3
sjrcpa  
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Get a 2848 so you can access IRS transcripts.
If she's really incompetent with no help, perhaps a call to Senior Services as a concerned citizen in order.
 

#4
Nilodop  
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If she's really incompetent with no help, perhaps a call to Senior Services as a concerned citizen in order.. Do you mean an anonymous concerned citizen, or as a preparer?

Sec 7216 prohibits disclosure by a preparer of
any information furnished to him for, or in connection with, the preparation of any such return
.
Tax return information includes " any information, including but not limited to a taxpayer's name, address, or identifying number". Sec. 301.7216-1(b)(3), Proced. & Admin. Regs. Section 7216 prohibits such a disclosure, and violation of the section could result in a 1-year jail sentence and/or a $1,000 fine.
. The last two sentences are from a TCM case in 1992 called Loftus.

However, 7216 allows use of the information
to prepare, or assist in preparing, any such return
. Most if not all of us would I assume assert that we'd be using the information in that way.

And we'd be doing a good deed, so is this really how IRS would waste its resources? Perhaps not. But since the penalty is criminal, ...

Another approach, allowed by 7216, is to disclose return information
(B) pursuant to an order of a court.
. But that's a lot for a preparer to take on.

What would I do? Probably what gatortaxguy suggests.
 

#5
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Yes, kick her while she's down. Maybe she's had a slew of bad news lately and this will be the straw that breaks the camel's back causing her to give up and die, thus saving herself from going senile while having no one to help her. Just think of all the hardship you will save her from.
Dave

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. ~ Mark Skousen
 

#6
Frankly  
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RightOn wrote:The problem is that she is a single woman with no relatives that I know of.
Speak to her about who she knows that can help her - neighbor, friend, church, niece, etc. Refer her to social service, doctor, or attorney. Does she have a will or trust? Ask her if she has any plans for the future and encourage her to get started in carrying them out. All of this could be considered tax planning.
 

#7
Nilodop  
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Excellent post by SlipperyPencil.
 

#8
novacpa  
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She needs a executor or executrix of her estate to be appointed to take charge of her financial affairs, so the
unscrupulous don't steal from her. Attorney? Trustee? Caregiver?
Then follow SJR's advice.
 

#9
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I've encountered this once. The gentleman who was my client progressed quickly and eventually was in my lobby accusing my assistant of stealing his social security checks. We only prepared a tax return for him and had no access to any of his funds. He simply associated us with taxes and government and his social security checks. It was not an easy circumstance.

We had thought we'd gotten ahead of this dynamic. We had a direct line of communication with his daughter-in-law who was supposedly going to be handling his affairs moving forward because we had all witnessed his decline.
In retrospect, we were not clear enough about how and when this transition was to take place.

I would suggest starting the conversation with her from a place of caring. As in,"I know it's an awkward conversation, but part of my role as your tax professional is to assist in your affairs through and after your passing. I want to make sure you have someone to handle your affairs through that point. Do you have someone in mind that may be able to take over that role? What if you are ill? Unfortunately, the government will still want their reporting provided to them in a timely manner regardless of your individual situation?"
If you haven't asked the question, you don't know the answer. If your client is combative and angry you would even ask this question, that dynamic won't get better as they slip toward senility. You can't manage people's lives for them and it would be better to assist them in finding a different solution for these services now then having to deal with an increasingly difficult situation. People may "throw stones" at you for disengaging, but your role is not to manage people's personal affairs (unless that is your business model).
~Captcook
 

#10
CathysTaxes  
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I've been there but the elderly client did have family that got involved.
Cathy
CathysTaxes
 

#11
Andrew  
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I don't understand the problem. You're afraid because she doesn't understand the return? None of my clients do either. And most of them will not review the returns nor do they ask me any questions. I briefly go over the returns with them when it's done. And that's it. In most cases, I get the signatures back within 5 minutes of sending the returns over.

You can't send her to a new preparer at this point in time. She's a prime target for getting defrauded. She's also been your loyal client for 20 years.

With my elderly clients, I have them sign the 2848 and get the transcripts. If they have a fp, the fp sends tax info to me directly. Mental decline in clients (and ourselves, lol) is something to be on the alert for long before this may happen.

Do you know the signs? Elderly client (it often seems to start around age 80) needs to sign for the returns and asks you what the date is. When you point to the next form they have to sign and date, they'll ask you again what the date is. And again ... In my layman's observation, these are the first signs of mental decline. Your client will show no other signs (yet). It seems like our capacity to remember numbers and dates goes first. One 87-year old just told me he was born 10 years later than the date I had on his returns .... for 20 years.
 

#12
COGS  
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This is an excellent topic.
 

#13
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Andrew wrote:You can't send her to a new preparer at this point in time. She's a prime target for getting defrauded. She's also been your loyal client for 20 years.


I strongly disagree with this statement. Make your own determination of whether this client is a good fit both for your practice AND what the client needs. We are not beholden to clients any more than they are beholden to us. I've seen MANY instances where this line of thinking has led professionals to situations they knew better to avoid, but didn't because "I can't let them go...[insert illogical, nonbusiness reason here]."
~Captcook
 

#14
Nilodop  
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Oh, you mean like SlipperyPencil suggests in %5. Yes, kick her while she's down. Maybe she's had a slew of bad news lately and this will be the straw that breaks the camel's back causing her to give up and die, thus saving herself from going senile while having no one to help her. Just think of all the hardship you will save her from.
 

#15
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My point is, there is NO way we can make a broad statement that anyone should or shouldn't keep a client in this situation. The OP is right to ask the question and they are right to be thoughtful about their decision.
Keeping a client and NOT having a conversation around this dynamic will not serve the OP or their client well.
We have hard conversations with our clients all the time. If you aren't having hard conversations with your clients, you're missing some pretty valuable opportunities and underserving them (and yourself). This isn't any difference.
I'm not saying the OP has to let her go as a client, but I do strongly disagree with a flat "you can't consider it" because of very real and significant service dynamics.
~Captcook
 

#16
Andrew  
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CaptCook wrote:My point is, there is NO way we can make a broad statement that anyone should or shouldn't keep a client in this situation.


What I wrote wasn't meant as a broad statement but a response to OP.

I also wrote about what a preparer can look out for, in my layman's opinion, to be alerted to potential mental decline in a client. Unless it's a rapid decline situation, in an early stage family members, with the knowledge of your client, can get involved. Or third parties whom the client still can get to know. This shouldn't take much of your time.
And I would certainly bill for my time as I did when setting up direct debits for an elderly client who kept misplacing her bills. We would call the companies together, you can conference your client in, on recorded lines and I had her sign a doc that she wanted a direct debit set up for all these services beforehand.

Most of us will know of family members of our clients. Especially, today, when most of your elderly clients don't know how to get their tax documents online because no company mails them anymore. Usually, you get an email from the client about a family member who is going to do that for them.

If a client has no family, then action may have to be taken sooner which means lining up third parties which is part of client care and please bill for it. Mental decline is a given for most of us. Don't be in denial about this with your elderly clients. Problematic situations may arise when the client actually develops Alzheimers. They can't make sense out of the world anymore and will accuse anyone of wrongdoing, that is, ... except themselves. They didn't loose their keys, someone stole them, etc.

Alerting a family member won't always come with a "thank you, I appreciate you caring". Elderly client came back to my office in distress. She couldn't find her car in the parking lot. Walking around the parking lot on April 14th some years ago wasn't on my to do list. We found her car. She drove off. I called her husband, concerned she wouldn't find her way home. He was in denial. Most family members don't want to deal with the extra care a person needs.
 

#17
Taxaway  
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Fortunately the very few clients I've seen decline this way have had family members who were aware and took the initiative.

If no family members at all, maybe a call to the client's local church/temple/et al...even if the client is not religious, I think you could honor confidentiality with "I'm a professional who works with Jane, and though client confidentiality prevents me from providing further details, it may be helpful to check in with her as I noticed a decline." I think parish priests/rabbis/et al would be more than receptive to at least visiting someone in their area to say hello. Then they could take it from there.
Last edited by Taxaway on 21-Oct-2021 12:19pm, edited 1 time in total.
 

#18
CathysTaxes  
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The first time I ran into this the elderly client's younger sister and brother in law were also clients that she had referred me to. When October 15 had already passed and the next tax season was upon us, when younger sister and husband came it all i said was 'How is Mary doing, I haven't seen her in a year in a half, it went over her head but her extremely sharp husband was alarmed. After our meeting they went straight to the older sister's house, got POA, and took over.

I'm currently dealing with two clients that can no longer fend for themselves, trying to work with a relative with very slow results. The long response time from the IRS due to Covid is not helping.
Cathy
CathysTaxes
 

#19
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CathysTaxes wrote:'How is Mary doing, I haven't seen her in a year in a half
This brings up an interesting aside. Isn't this statement an illegal client disclosure?
Dave

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. ~ Mark Skousen
 

#20
CathysTaxes  
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SlipperyPencil wrote:
CathysTaxes wrote:'How is Mary doing, I haven't seen her in a year in a half
This brings up an interesting aside. Isn't this statement an illegal client disclosure?

I never mentioned that the sister was a client. They knew because she referred them to me.
Cathy
CathysTaxes
 

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