Too Harsh on Admin Employee?

Software. Marketing. Training. Running your business.
#21
Posts:
2611
Joined:
24-Jan-2019 2:16pm
Location:
North Shore, Oahu
This employee has been patiently coached and warned SEVERAL times about these things. This includes explaining the reasons why they are so critical and important to us.

Over and over, actually.

Has it been "us talking and her nodding her head"? Perhaps. I will see if I can get her to "state out loud" how she can fix the issues.

The scheduling is a big issue if I'm taking clients from 1-5pm, every half hour, and the mishap was scheduled for 1pm. They pretty much have to go home. There is a lot of traffic (normally) in our city and the parking garage is small and difficult to navigate in our building.

Plus if I don't document this with a written warning and then I fire her, I could be seen legally as the bad guy.

_____

We spend NON STOP babysitting and parenting energy for all 3 of our admin personnel, including the one in the OP.

Cell phones (endless), messy food everywhere, docs everywhere, falling asleep sitting up, giving crazy tax advice to non clients on the phone, sorting away emails that need action and creating open loops, misfiling downloaded docs, asking clients for document passwords when they have already been clearly provided in the previous email, ignoring voicemails, not reminding clients about tomorrow's appointments again and again, ask the covid question..."why did you hang up again without asking the Covid questions"?. Etc. It never ends.

If one was to observe or listen in, it would sound like a parent talking to a monster of a 2 year old.

"no, don't do that"

"no"

"no"

"no"

"no"

Lucky we check everything. But what's the point of having employees if we have to check everything? Same amount of work, but more overhead costs.

My partner and I consider downsizing at some point and doing less volume as a trade off for the overhead and parenting energy, labor costs, legal costs, and time costs.
Last edited by ItDepends on 26-Feb-2021 2:00pm, edited 3 times in total.
 

#22
Posts:
6036
Joined:
22-Apr-2014 3:06pm
Location:
WA State
novacpa wrote:Collect the cell phones - give em' back at lunch, collect them after lunch, give them back at end of work day.


I do this at my home with my kids. I would not do this in a professional environment. If employees are not able to devote their attention appropriately, they aren't well suited to a professional environment.
~Captcook
 

#23
sjrcpa  
Posts:
6471
Joined:
23-Apr-2014 5:27pm
Location:
Maryland
It sounds like none of the 3 admin employees should be working for you.
 

#24
Posts:
835
Joined:
1-Sep-2020 2:47pm
Location:
845-NY
This whole thread makes me so happy to not have employees.
 

#25
Posts:
6036
Joined:
22-Apr-2014 3:06pm
Location:
WA State
ItDepends wrote:Lucky we check everything. But what's the point of having employees if we have to check everything? Same amount of work, but more overhead costs.


I say this jokingly, but at some point one has to recognize that the only common denominator in all your failures is you.

If there is a common thread among ALL your admin folks, you probably need to evaluate your selection and training for these folks. Either that or you may have one of these three that is a pulling the others into their bad habits.

I wish you the very best of luck.
~Captcook
 

#26
FLAcct  
Posts:
446
Joined:
21-Apr-2014 2:47pm
Location:
Florida
A couple of years ago i fired a bookkeeper because she kept making mistakes regardless of how much I tried to coach her along. I realized then that this job requires a lot of attention to detail and double checking and some people are incapable of that in the same way that I would be incapable of repairing a car. We all have different skill sets. So let her go and move on. Don't waste as much time as I did trying to help this employee.
 

#27
Posts:
2611
Joined:
24-Jan-2019 2:16pm
Location:
North Shore, Oahu
CaptCook wrote:
ItDepends wrote:Lucky we check everything. But what's the point of having employees if we have to check everything? Same amount of work, but more overhead costs.


I say this jokingly, but at some point one has to recognize that the only common denominator in all your failures is you.

If there is a common thread among ALL your admin folks, you probably need to evaluate your selection and training for these folks. Either that or you may have one of these three that is a pulling the others into their bad habits.

I wish you the very best of luck.


Yes, you're right and I get it.

It's up to me to implement items for which I can leverage with employees and it's up to me to train and manage them effectively.

I accept these as my own failures. 100%.

Still, it might be easier and more profitable, considering my own (lack of) management skills to "automate" and downsize instead of to "delegate".

Thanks all for the other answers too - I see them and they are helpful.
 

#28
Posts:
2468
Joined:
24-Apr-2014 7:54am
Location:
Wisconsin
novacpa wrote:Collect the cell phones - give em' back at lunch, collect them after lunch, give them back at end of work day.


This is absolutely dreadful advice. If you treat employees people like children, they will act like children.

ItDepends wrote:Cell phones (endless), messy food everywhere, docs everywhere, falling asleep sitting up, giving crazy tax advice to non clients on the phone, sorting away emails that need action and creating open loops, misfiling downloaded docs, asking clients for document passwords when they have already been clearly provided in the previous email, ignoring voicemails, not reminding clients about tomorrow's appointments again and again, ask the covid question..."why did you hang up again without asking the Covid questions"?. Etc. It never ends.


The cell phone complaint... If you are angry because employees are looking at their cell phone in front of clients leading to an unprofessional image, or if looking at their cell phone means that they are not accomplishing a reasonable amount of work in a reasonable timeframe, that seems like a legitimate gripe. Otherwise, I tend to associate that specific complaint with bad/micro managing. That said, when I link it with the rest of everything else you wrote, it does seem to suggest that there is a pattern of the employees not taking ownership and pride in their work.

Lucky we check everything. But what's the point of having employees if we have to check everything? Same amount of work, but more overhead costs.


You have admin staff to do work but you check everything? So they know that if they screw up, someone else will be there to fix it for them, so they have no reason to take any level of ownership in the job they're doing?

Honestly, if you make them more responsible for the quality of their work (especially for the little things) you will drive more care in their work. Sure, there will be mistakes made, but expect to pay a few penalties for a few mistakes in advancing a larger goal.

ItDepends wrote:Still, it might be easier and more profitable, considering my own (lack of) management skills to "automate" and downsize instead of to "delegate".


I'm not exactly sure how you plan to "automate" things to remove the human element... in my experience, instead of a human managing another human it becomes a human managing a computer program written by someone else, and at least you can change a human's behavior. Yes, if your portal is connected to your software programs it helps, for example. And I have loved using a calendar solution that automatically sends my clients an e-mail reminder 24 hours ahead of my appointment. But automation rarely is as good as promised.

My gut would be to fire the one admin who sent the payroll tax returns to the wrong client and hid it from you, if not today, then right after busy season. During the summer there is a reset of expectations on both sides with the remaining admin employees. They need to change (and part of this reset means that every issue up to a certain date is as if it never happened) but you need to change, too. Come up with about 3 overarching, 30,000 foot goals that the firm needs to achieve with your partner. Then you have the entire firm add a couple subgoals for each goal that will help achieve the stated goals. Of course your big issues with them (which generally seem to be that they need to improve professionalism and the quality of work being done) are also included with your employees' suggestions in those subgoals. Once you have the subgoals set in stone, everyone can then together create a number of small objectives for each subgoal (cleaning the office and maintaining documentation organization would be examples of specific objectives to attain).

You pick a few objectives for everyone to meet over a period of time (a month or two). If the staff has an idea that might help meet the goals, be willing to invest a reasonable amount in these projects -- not everything will work exactly right, but so long as everyone is learning and moving forward it's fine. An 80% win is a win. You then have one-on-one meetings after the time period is over, and you talk about how you and they did on meeting those objectives, and you select some new ones to accomplish over the next month or two, lather rinse repeat.

This is, of course, a series of meetings and it will take some time to develop trust. You outline the project in meeting 1 and give them some time to think about improvements in your management style and the subgoals. You need to give them a fair amount of time to come up with a list so that you can have a reasonable discussion as adults. Not everything they say will be valid but not everything will be invalid, either, and you don't downplay or naysay their criticisms of you in that meeting. Know that your ego is going to take a bit of a beating, but it's for the bigger good.

That reset of expectations has to be a real reset. And the reset of expectations does come with a reset of compensation. They will have a higher level of responsibility moving forward which would be commensurate to a higher base pay package. There may be opportunities to grow in their admin position where they take on additional, higher-level work. And their contribution to meeting the firm goals means that not only will they keep their jobs, they will participate in the firm with a bonus structure. You want these employees to advance firm goals as much as the partners do, so you need to make them participate in the benefits as well. Not all rewards need to be specifically monetary, and you can use additional vacation days or "close the office early on a Friday" as part of it.

Isn't this going to be expensive? Not at all, because you have a pool of money from what you're not spending on Admin 3. Your other two admins can tell you if you need to hire a part-time person to do some tasks (such as answering the phones) or not, or maybe Admin 3 can just be replaced seasonally. The way you're going to accomplish this is by moving some duties from them to partner level so that the remainder of Admin 3's work can be shared among the other 2. And the reason you're going to have the time to take on the additional work is because you're removing yourself from doing things that you don't need to be doing (like reviewing minor things).

That is, if you think you have the ability to become a better manager. Have a go if you think you're hard enough. Otherwise, if you don't think you're up to it, then maybe you need to cut your losses and run.
 

#29
Posts:
2611
Joined:
24-Jan-2019 2:16pm
Location:
North Shore, Oahu
Thanks MD. I really appreciate it!
 

#30
novacpa  
Posts:
1228
Joined:
28-Apr-2014 1:16pm
Location:
McLean, Virginia 22101
Missing_donut: If you took the teenager's cell phone away - these mistakes wouldn't happen. The office of today is riddled with distractions, cell phones, internet surfing and shopping.
Control it or you have mayhem.
It's old fashion great advice, concentration produces great work.
Distraction produces chaos.
You say "fire the girl" I say "control her environment".
 

#31
Posts:
2468
Joined:
24-Apr-2014 7:54am
Location:
Wisconsin
novacpa wrote:Missing_donut: If you took the teenager's cell phone away - these mistakes wouldn't happen. The office of today is riddled with distractions, cell phones, internet surfing and shopping.
Control it or you have mayhem.
It's old fashion great advice, concentration produces great work.
Distraction produces chaos.
You say "fire the girl" I say "control her environment".


Are you running a CPA firm or a child care center? I pull from my experience working at multiple small CPA firms and a few different employers in the private sector when I say this: when you treat employees like professionals, you will retain the professionals and lose the children. When you treat employees like children, you will retain the children and lose the professionals. Ultimately you decide who you have working for you, but I would rather have professionals work for me.

The reason to hire employees is so they do a reasonable amount of work and to do it well so that you don't have to. If they can meet the reasonable work results then who cares if they spend some time on their phone? Obviously excepting if they're playing on their phone in front of clients/other professionalism issues. I need my mental health breaks during the day and I expect others do as well. If they aren't meeting the results required then it doesn't matter whether the cell phone is the culprit or not, because ultimately the results are what matters.

The primary reason that I fire Admin 3 is the attempt to cover up the major error. They knew what they did was very wrong and tried to keep it from the partner. If I can't trust you, how can you work for me?
 

#32
novacpa  
Posts:
1228
Joined:
28-Apr-2014 1:16pm
Location:
McLean, Virginia 22101
Missing - think of the Office as you do a Courtroom. In Court you may not have a cell phone "On" - require that all cell phones be in the "Off Position" until break time, then "Off" when work resumes.
Same for Internet - no surfing during work time, no shopping ever.
Remove the distractions - work flow improves. Without having to take
your bad advice of firing the girl and getting sued by her lawyer.
 

#33
CathysTaxes  
Moderator
Posts:
3557
Joined:
21-Apr-2014 9:41am
Location:
Suburb of Chicago
Nova why would he get sued for firing her?
Cathy
CathysTaxes
 

#34
novacpa  
Posts:
1228
Joined:
28-Apr-2014 1:16pm
Location:
McLean, Virginia 22101
I prepare tax returns for several Employment Attorneys in the DC Metro area, they sue on behalf of
aggrieved plaintiff's who have been "wrongfully terminated" and do they ever collect, big time.
 

#35
CathysTaxes  
Moderator
Posts:
3557
Joined:
21-Apr-2014 9:41am
Location:
Suburb of Chicago
It doesn't sound to me like wrongful termination. Especially from the clients' perspective. Their information being given to the wrong people. DC sounds like a cesspool of laws that discourage hiring.
Cathy
CathysTaxes
 

#36
Posts:
2611
Joined:
24-Jan-2019 2:16pm
Location:
North Shore, Oahu
CathysTaxes wrote:DC sounds like a cesspool of laws that discourage hiring.



Hawaii sure is.

If it were not for these laws I would hire more help and provide more benefits (I've had more than one employee call in sick for 3 months at a time to milk benefits, then do it again).

And the court proceedings are jury only (non-summary or something?), which will be made up of personality types that will sympathize with the employee. And I'm standing there as the rich, sharply groomed, salt and pepper, evil-middle-aged privileged business owner. 8-)



That's why I gave her a written warning.

Even though, in general, such a letter is bad for her last bit of remaining morale and thus bad for my business. :cry:

It would have been better if I didn't have to choose such direct words, IMO. "Fix it right away or or fired" is what the written warning pretty much says, though more politely and more technically detailed.

There's better ways to coach an employee, but it's all about CYA. My employment lawyer is super expensive.
 

#37
CathysTaxes  
Moderator
Posts:
3557
Joined:
21-Apr-2014 9:41am
Location:
Suburb of Chicago
Illinois is also a haven for incompetent employees. I'm so glad that I decided to remain me, myself and I. My sister in law, a very smart CPA, had a partner, and when she needed help, she hired her older sister.
Cathy
CathysTaxes
 

#38
ATSMAN  
Posts:
2094
Joined:
31-May-2014 8:34pm
Location:
MA
I am not trying to pick on attorneys but in my experience they play the sue and settle game all the time. It costs them next to nothing to sue a deep pocket with the expectation that if you are the defendant you will settle for some amount that is less than the legal fees you will incur defending your self and taking a chance that you may prevail!

Believe me, I have seen that with my own eyes and my son was the victim and he has shelled out over $10K in legal fees defending a frivolous lawsuit. They wanted to settle for $4K BUT he was not going to admit wrongdoing for something that did not happen.

The whole legal system in this country is a joke :x :x :x
 

#39
novacpa  
Posts:
1228
Joined:
28-Apr-2014 1:16pm
Location:
McLean, Virginia 22101
In the DC Metro area the outcome of a "wrongful termination" case is largely dependent
on the political leaning of the Judge. Republican Judges will routinely dismiss these cases
on Summary Judgment.
However, left leaning Dem Judges will let the case proceed to trial by Jury and that exposes
the Defendant/Employer to huge damage awards $300/500,000.
Avoid getting sued at all costs.
 

#40
fish  
Posts:
159
Joined:
1-Apr-2020 3:53pm
Location:
Alexandria VA
AlexCPA wrote: .... I check the cameras and surely enough, this person spent about 1.5-2.0 hours texting over the course of 7-hour day


Whoa... really? you have cameras on your employees? That's cold.
 

PreviousNext

Return to Business Operations and Development



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests