Too Harsh on Admin Employee?

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#41
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He has these scattered around the office:

https://www.adorama.com/kjbc1250c.html? ... l-umbase-p
 

#42
AlexCPA  
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ManVsTax wrote:He has these scattered around the office:

https://www.adorama.com/kjbc1250c.html? ... l-umbase-p



Haha! :lol: It's hidden amongst the other office decorations: https://imgur.com/a/iY97kdZ
Even more of my antics may be found on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDitB ... sMwfO19h7A
 

#43
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CathysTaxes wrote:It doesn't sound to me like wrongful termination.


That's because it's not. You can fire someone without cause in most states, so long as it's not a protected class, and so long as you don't have a specified employment contract.

In general if you treat people right when they work for you, even if you have to let them go they will respond in kind. An attorney may recommend that you provide a small severance (and of course that severance includes an agreement to not sue) and generally if you let the employee know that you won't challenge their unemployment that tends to calm the situation before they lawyer up.
 

#44
novacpa  
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missingdonut wrote:
CathysTaxes wrote:It doesn't sound to me like wrongful termination.


That's because it's not. You can fire someone without cause in most states, so long as it's not a protected class, and so long as you don't have a specified employment contract.

In general if you treat people right when they work for you, even if you have to let them go they will respond in kind. An attorney may recommend that you provide a small severance (and of course that severance includes an agreement to not sue) and generally if you let the employee know that you won't challenge their unemployment that tends to calm the situation before they lawyer up.


This is simply Bad Advice, and potentially very expensive Bad Advice. Every jurisdiction differs.
Before you "fire" someone, consult a good Employment Attorney, and let them do it, save yourself
the lawsuit and settlement payout that could bankrupt the client.
 

#45
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What is the actual statistical likelihood in your jurisdiction of being sued after firing an employee for cause, nova?

I absolutely agree that one should consult an attorney in their jurisdiction before making major decisions. I would not be involved in a client's decision to fire or not fire any employee.
 

#46
novacpa  
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In the jurisdictions of DC 80% in Maryland 40% in Virginia 5%.
The first thing your client gets is a Complaint that must be answered in 30-days. Take it to
an Employment Attorney $10,000 to start. Answer the complaint and a set of interrogatories
a 1,000 sworn questions to be answered (under oath) and a demand for Production of Documents,
that's another $15,000. POD includes your tax records. Opposing counsel follows by filing a Form 211
with the IRS Whistleblowers Office, stating "during the course of a lawsuit we discovered the following
tax fraud and want a 25% reward under IRC Sec 7623".
Next, depositions of your clients, and all employees who maybe witnesses to the employment abuse.
Next, a jury trial in downtown DC from a DC jury pool.
Next a verdict in favor of the aggrieved plaintiff.
Since its uninsured, your clients pays it all.
Next, you accompany your client to his 347-hearing in Bankruptcy Court.
My advice is to do your best to avoid all of that.
 

#47
ATSMAN  
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novacpa wrote:In the jurisdictions of DC 80% in Maryland 40% in Virginia 5%.
The first thing your client gets is a Complaint that must be answered in 30-days. Take it to
an Employment Attorney $10,000 to start. Answer the complaint and a set of interrogatories
a 1,000 sworn questions to be answered (under oath) and a demand for Production of Documents,
that's another $15,000. [b] POD includes your tax records. Opposing counsel follows by filing a Form 211
with the IRS Whistleblowers Office, stating "during the course of a lawsuit we discovered the following
tax fraud and want a 25% reward under IRC Sec 7623".
[/b]
Next, depositions of your clients, and all employees who maybe witnesses to the employment abuse.
Next, a jury trial in downtown DC from a DC jury pool.
Next a verdict in favor of the aggrieved plaintiff.
Since its uninsured, your clients pays it all.
Next, you accompany your client to his 347-hearing in Bankruptcy Court.
My advice is to do your best to avoid all of that.


That is a routine fishing expedition that plaintiffs use and a good defense counsel should be able to narrow it down to just matters that are directly related to the plaintiff such as payroll records etc. They are not getting a copy of the 1040 or 1120 or 1065 forms. Most judges will see through the motive and allow only time cards and other payroll records directly relating to the plaintiff.

How do I know, been there!
 

#48
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novacpa wrote:In the jurisdictions of DC 80% in Maryland 40% in Virginia 5%.
The first thing your client gets is a Complaint that must be answered in 30-days. Take it to
an Employment Attorney $10,000 to start. Answer the complaint and a set of interrogatories
a 1,000 sworn questions to be answered (under oath) and a demand for Production of Documents,
that's another $15,000. POD includes your tax records. Opposing counsel follows by filing a Form 211
with the IRS Whistleblowers Office, stating "during the course of a lawsuit we discovered the following
tax fraud and want a 25% reward under IRC Sec 7623".
Next, depositions of your clients, and all employees who maybe witnesses to the employment abuse.
Next, a jury trial in downtown DC from a DC jury pool.
Next a verdict in favor of the aggrieved plaintiff.
Since its uninsured, your clients pays it all.
Next, you accompany your client to his 347-hearing in Bankruptcy Court.
My advice is to do your best to avoid all of that.


I think it might be cheaper just to fake the deaths of everyone in the firm but the dismissed, and relocate on the other side of the country.

Now it's time to learn everyone's "new" names.
 

#49
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I've made the decision to terminate this employee.

I'm doing so because:

1) I have too much admin personnel going into the off season and I realize that I don't need so much even during tax time.
2) This employee does a terrible job.

But she was hired before (senior to) another admin person, who is related to me, who's performance is much better.

We have no seniority rules, etc, and all employees are at-will and non-union.

Still, my concern is "favoritism" or whatever.

Do I tell her she is being terminated due to her poor performance?

Do I tell her that it is because I am cutting down staff hours and the business no longer has a use for her? (100% true, I'm cutting everyone's hours, but I'm keeping on my niece at a reduced schedule)

Of course if she asks about the other employee, I will tell her that is is not appropriate for me to comment, but all she has to do is call the next day and hear that the other employee (my niece) is answering the phone.

It is 100% true that this employee is terrible and that my niece is actually quite good, performance wise.

What's my move as I terminate her?

I'm thinking "performance". Even though both reasons are honest, I have the performance issues well documented. It's a tougher conversation, but feel like it's "safer".

But how do you tell someone that they are "not smart enough for the position?"
 

#50
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Southern California
Run it past your attorney. You will sleep far better than if taking advice from a public forum.

We are snakebit here as CA favors EEs to a fault, every termination gets run through an attorney. Even though employment is at-will (non-union) AND documented cause, your attorney may recommend other protective steps that you or we would not consider under your specific circumstances, and it will be worth every penny you pay to them.
 

#51
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North Shore, Oahu
Thanks, but I don't know...

I have written warnings and a more than reasonable argument. And more issues/documentation since the events in this thread. I think I'll just terminate for poor performance and leave it at that.

The day I can't fire an employee because I cant trust her on the phone or with files - when her job is to handle the phone and files - for fear of getting sued - is the day I stop having employees altogether. She's literally damaging my livelihood and all of my hard work.

Tough conversation though.
 

#52
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ItDepends wrote:Yes the job is hard, but the 2 other admin employees do not make so many critical mistakes.

After several mistakes over the last 15 months and attempts at coaching the employee on these issues, the employee:

1) Sent a full set of payroll tax returns and UI docs (filled with salaries, W2s, SS#s, etc to the wrong client) via sharefile. Then didn't tell us. We discovered it later and cancelled the link, no thanks to her. Instead she kept it from us and we only saw it in the sent folder because she sent another email saying to disregard the first, and here are the correct docs.

We have coached her SEVERAL times to triple check all docs before sending them. And to have us check her drafts. And we said several times, "there is no pressure or hurry to send these things, go slow, ask us to check them first, there's no quota on your production, quality over quantity, sending the wrong docs to the wrong clients is the worst mistake you can make, etc".

2) She inattentively told a client the wrong day when scheduling them. I batch several appointments into small blocks of time so I can get things done at other times. Having 2 clients show up at once is VERY hard to deal with when there are several back to back appointments proceeding.

3) An hour later, she handed the wrong docs to a client picking up. For example, she gave John Smith's docs to Tom Smith (totally unrelated). Fortunately, my partner checked them and "grabbed" them out of Tom's hands. Could you imagine telling John Smith that we cant find his docs? Or the bad review and loss of confidence from Tom (if he bothered to look at them when he got home)?

There have been several patient attempts at coaching. So this was the last straw, and I wrote her a very blunt warning that says if she cant fix these issues and prevent these mistakes, that I would terminate her. I also gave her more patient and polite coaching in the letter and verbally as well. But the gist of the letter was very blunt. "We've told you several times, and you must fix it immediately or your employment is terminated."

I was very professional, but unfortunately now..... viola, she is crying - and I feel like a jerk.



I politely fired her for cause (poor performance) and gave her the last paycheck.

She sadly agreed with me, apologized, thanked me, and said she learned a lot working for me.

I watched her out of the window as she walked slowly down the sidewalk with her head down toward the bus stop while my (wife's) Lexus sits waiting for me in the parking lot.


I'm sure that it had to be done. Since my previous posts, she continued to make these mistakes.

But I'm not sure why I see the Devil when I look at my reflection in the CPU monitor.
Last edited by ItDepends on 16-Apr-2021 10:31am, edited 1 time in total.
 

#53
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ItDepends wrote:
But I'm not sure why I see the Devil when I look at my reflection in the CPU monitor.


I think that is an indication that you are, fundamentally, a decent person.
 

#54
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Agreed.
You set an expectation and this individual did not meet it. You have to trust this person will find something they are better suited to do. That's not your responsibility. It's theirs.
~Captcook
 

#55
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SumwunLost wrote:
ItDepends wrote:
But I'm not sure why I see the Devil when I look at my reflection in the CPU monitor.


I think that is an indication that you are, fundamentally, a decent person.


Yep. Get some fresh air, take a walk, get out of the office It's better for you both and it will get better.
 

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